Why dont you want the CHF to express their opinions on this site? The site is called Hockey Rock not “ACHA comments only”. I know that the ACHA powers to be want the CHF to fail but that is not going to happen.
Just let whoever wants to play hockey, play.
Chizy…chizy…chizy… I thought we had found some even ground between us. You all acha party lined and full of negativity and me all CHFed and positive. If you look back I’ve defended your right to have an opinion despite how off-base I personally thought it might be(very non-achaish by the way). Its what message/ topic boards are about.The man that runs this board is a hockey guy with time working with the ACHA , but a genuine interest in the CHF. My “tweaks” commentary is my assessment of the situation based on what I see and conversations with a few of the coaches who teams "morphed "up the rankings to a regional bid(yes I still have a large contingent of friends in the acha). .Your naive at best to imply something like that couldn’t happen in the acha with the homegrown algorithm they use.
If your shoe smells like crap, its safe to say you found dog crap on your walk.
Weird statement considering it’s the same ranking system/math/algorithm MHR uses, except that win percentage is added after all the heavy math (which MHR themselves did for the ACHA for a few years). The only other, but ultimately meaningless, difference is the arbitrary base SOS rating number (MHR explains why they chose the number they did).
So, if there is really something untowards going on, it should be relatively easy to identify. Want to be more specific about which teams and what ratings don’t seem to be correct?
Nothing weird about it. If the acha is using the MHR copyrighted system without their approval thats kinda illegal. So its likely the acha is using a self built version. I think the curious changes in ranking…climbing 5 spots while playing 1 non-rankable game…or climbing 7 spots while losing 2 out of 3…look a bit hinky…like I said before my assessment, my opinion though shared by others I can assure you.
Won’t id any specific coaches or teams while they are under the acha’s thumb.
You can copyright math and basic algorithms? Interesting. No one said they hacked MHR’s servers and stole code or are suggesting the rankings are computed by MHR, but the mathematical theory itself isn’t all that complicated and can be reproduced if you have the ability to write the program to handle the mass amount of game data.
Look, you are outwardly suggesting the rankings were manipulated by whomever controls the system but not providing any real information about how. The fact that you didn’t seem to know the ACHA’s system uses the same underlying mathematical theory as MHR could suggest to the neutral observer that this is more about grudges than real evidence. Because, if someone understand’s MHR’s math (and thus the ACHA’s system), that person would know that movement of 3-4 spots in a given week is quite possible under a number of situations/scenarios, despite what an ill-advised twitter exchange might suggest.
That’s just a odd look for someone in your position. There are a lot of good points and reasons that led to the CHF and it is great to see it doing well, but weird and mostly unsubstantiated tangents like this may do more harm to your cause than good.
Like everyone here you’re entitled to your opinion. I have no idea how the acha configures their rankings … but have loads of experience with rankings and movement within… 3 or 4 slots is quite common but rarely at this time of year based on all the factors already used. 5-7 is abnormal and since the acha manages their own rankings…it makes you say hmm. My assessment , my opinion… shared by others. Asking the question… posing the possibility… is what spurred the CHF to be created because of the things that have been done behind the curtain in the past.
First off, It’s not easy to produce, and it is copyrighted intellectual property.
So I think what he meant, with all due respect, is that the ACHA constructed a flawed ranking system that fails to accomplish what MHR is capable of doing, however they sold its reliability to membership, and the results aren’t accurate, valid or reliable, hence the tweet “Funny Math”. You see, this topic isn’t really open to debate, because math doesn’t lie.
The ACHA Rankings at D3 add a teams Winning %, Goal Differential and SOS together… The problem is how they calculate SOS… I guarantee you, their calculation of SOS is closer to an excel spreadsheet average of opponents ratings (at the time you played them - its static), not a dynamic algorithm that evolves a solution set based upon the depth of relationships over the course of a season. The biggest question is how they developed the initial SOS baseline? My bet is everyone started at 5, just a guess, and after 5-8 games they used a combo of w/l to adjust up or down. The ACHA’s rankings don’t learn over the course of a season, which is why you see ratings as fluid as you did in the last 2 weeks of the season. That’s not how it’s supposed to work. This rewards isolated conferences and teams who blow out other teams… The proof of this is to identify the larger conferences and identify the gaps between their top team’s SOS and their worst team’s SOS.
The best example is to look at the SOS in the MCHC in the North… Those teams play each other all year long and don’t have to travel outside of their league, say for a few exhibitions. The gap in SOS between the best MCHC team and the worst is less than a half point, because they all play each other, so they don’t get exposed… Similar within the SEC / SEHL and that Midwest League in the Pacific… But in regions where teams don’t play each other… Like the ACHA’s D3 Atlantic Region… You have the #1 seed with the same SOS as the # 32 and lower than the #33. Which means that the #1 in the Atlantic is inflated on
It’s FUNNY MATH plain and simple…
Neither of you are particularly convincing that you really understand the (pretty basic) math behind the MHR ranking system (and thus the ACHA’s rankings). No one said that producing the rankings was “easy”, just that the math itself is pretty straightforward.
Surely, having to apply those calculations over hundreds of teams and thousands of games, and in multiple hundreds of iterations, is where things get difficult and where you need to create a computer program to be able to do so. That part, not so easy. But let’s not pretend there is only one person in the world trancendant enough to do so.
Without parsing apart your attemps to guess at the ACHA ranking system, let’s refocus. Jay was actually quite clear about what he meant - that someone who has access to the D3 Rankings was manually manipulating them so “CHF Friendly” teams were… moved UP INTO REGIONALS just so they couldn’t attend CHF Nationals. He freely admitted he doesn’t know how the ACHA ranks or what underlying theory is, just that he’s got an otherworldy sense of intuition about how these things “should” be.
Here’s the thing. Everyone knows where Jay’s position is coming from. He’s a leader in a competing organization that is actively working to recruit teams from the ACHA, and so floating things like this is meant to damage the reputation of the ACHA and enhance the CHF’s standing. Unfortunately, it is becoming pretty clear there isn’t a lot of concern over whether he’s actually right, just that he wants to do what he can to undermine other people.
I guess it’s just that if I was in Jay’s position, I’d want to make sure I was right first, then talk. If the movement he’s talking about shouldn’t have happened, one could pretty easily prove it by checking/reversing the math. But, since he’s declined to provide any details about who, when and where these questionable moves have happened, its hard to take any of this as legitimate criticism given his very clear underlying motives.
By the by, it would be funny if this was all about the Atlantic region, since 19 of 20 teams had 15 or less games recorded by the 1/31 rankings (7 had 10 or less!). Yes, with that few games at that point in the season, there is a pretty high likelihood of drastic movement over the final few weeks. Don’t even take my word for it, here’s good ol’ MHR suggestion you need 20+ for the rankings to be accurate (i.e. not succeptible to big changes based on 1-2 results - see FAQ 4). Not a single team in the Atlantic division played 20 recorded games by final rankings.
Slippy…lets be clear…
Too many assumptions on your end…I haven’t tried to convince anyone just my opinion based on my observation and experience with rankings…Here’s the thing…ACHA has a guy without the benefit of a computer program manually doing their rankings, maybe he’s a math professor or Rainman or just a guy doing a job. It brings in a human/manual element that can be adjusted. (did you notice once this came up all the rankings prior to #9 and #10 we gone from the ACHA site) I am definitely a leader in another organization that is not in agreement with how the ACHA does parts of their business. In fact I’m one of the guys that petitioned the ACHA for 18 months to open discussion to address issues. (they refused)Thats how the CHF arose. Its my opinion based on the large jumps in rankings that something was afoot. Maybe it was a bad calculator week for the ACHA ranker, or maybe something else. Its these type of “unknowns” and “behind the scenes” activities that caused teams to leave the ACHA.
I’m not afraid to point out when something looks wrong because its not new for the ACHA. The ACHA isn’t worried much about ol" Jay Turcotte because anyone who has the right motivations and committment to the players knows who I am and what I’m about.
Finally the issues spanned 3 different regions…yes the Atlantic being one of them. MHR is fine with a 16 game slate to have "accurate rankings…Thats why that game # is needed to qualify for Regionals and Nationals…interesting half the Atlantic teams didn’t play the minimum games needed to qualify for post season…but they are still going to Scranton. CHF suspended that requirement this season…did the ACHA?..anyway I like Fries math!!
Bottom line, when are you taking them to court?
Cali…why? Regardless of what their party line is we’re going to go about our business. We’re building an organization that is playercentric, offers equity and transparency to all its program members. I’m not sure anyone benefits from litigation regardless of the issue. There is lots of ground to expand and grow the CHF and what we do. We’re going to keep working to add value to the proposition.
So, CHF is upset at ACHA M3’s rankings because they say it’s preventing them from having ACHA M3 teams play in their CHF tournament?
“CHF is strong” … and yet the success or failure of the CHF tournament depends on another organization’s member teams and internal rankings?
Fish…making assumptions like Slippery just not as edgy…CHF is strong…the acha M3 teams were just an opportunity to include and show some of the curious .programs what the other side is about. We built in “at large” bids so we could approach teams that had expressed interest or were curious about the CHF.
The rankings puzzle, financial obligations and stern language from the mothership prevented that. OH well!! we’ll reach out to the those teams in another way. C’mon out to West Chester March 10 thru 15 and see how successful and strong the CHF is. We’re fine outside the acha and already receiving commitments for next season. Time will tell!!
Because it’s not right in my opinion.
Cali…I apologize , but please clarify for me which issue we’re talking about to make sure I’m not off base. Litigation is an ugly word, justifiable in some circumstances, but not sure it benefits the big picture.
Who is tbd? Why tbd
Delaware game 1 vs TBD is cancelled, interesting.
Hey all…time to resolve the puzzle…been National tournament obsessed last few weeks so haven’t been message board bound. The TBD unfortunately means to be determined. We lost a team to disciplinary action late …right before the tournament. When we reached out to our next ups…one was financially unable…the second was banned from travel (F’n Coronavirus)…the third was coming until they were recalled from travel by their school(F’n Coronavirus). So we had to reconfigure…change plans…adjust schedules make it work for all parties…like what we do all the time. Not really the way we planned but we don’t let hurdles stop us…(see Ashley Bevan -conflict of interest). Tournament is on…and rocking!!! Excellent games…excellent venue…excellent broadcasts…
Games Live streamed on Black dog Hockey…Player and coach interviews on Twitter
Like it should be…just sayin.
Hope this coronavirus situation doesn’t impact any other events…