For JTurk a continuation

Once again Hockey Rock doesn’t allow more than three responses per thread for new users. I have been following Hockey Rock for a while and I know what the CHF is trying to do. I disagree with the view point that the ACHA is more expensive than the CHF. I think the people that started the CHF have a better appreciation for how much it costs to run an organization.

Here is my response to your latest post

JTurk, How do you arrive at the Michigan D3 teams driving the ACHA? The ACHA doesn’t care about D3 and you can see that is the case throughout the history of the ACHA. The ACHA decided to cancel the D3 nationals this past year yet offer nationals to every other division except for women’s ACHA D2. I know CVT and you give him way too much credit. He is the president of the MCHC but that is a member driven organization. The actual voting block you speak of has always been held by the D3 Southeastern schools since the meeting is in Florida. As a matter of fact the DVCHC routinely had more members in Florida than the Michigan schools. I believe the CHF is also a money grab. I believe the issue across the board is the lack of respect "D3’ teams have had throughout the years. I believe the CHF has provided a platform for those voices to be heard but please don’t make the argument that the CHF and the ACHA are extremely different in their costs to operate. Last time I checked the ACHA does not spend over $200,000 on their staff’s salaries. That number is absurd. I challenge you, JTurk, to show that the ACHA pays that amount of money. The executive director gets paid $60,000 and the five commissioners receive a total of $30,000. Director of Operations is $10,000. That is a far cry from $200,000
JTurk, How do you arrive at the Michigan D3 teams driving the ACHA? The ACHA doesn’t care about D3 and you can see that is the case throughout the history of the ACHA. The ACHA decided to cancel the D3 nationals this past year yet offer nationals to every other division except for women’s ACHA D2. I know CVT and you give him way too much credit. He is the president of the MCHC but that is a member driven organization. The actual voting block you speak of has always been held by the D3 Southeastern schools since the meeting is in Florida. As a matter of fact the DVCHC routinely had more members in Florida than the Michigan schools. I believe the CHF is also a money grab. I believe the issue across the board is the lack of respect "D3’ teams have had throughout the years. I believe the CHF has provided a platform for those voices to be heard but please don’t make the argument that the CHF and the ACHA are extremely different in their costs to operate. Last time I checked the ACHA does not spend over $200,000 on their staff’s salaries. That number is absurd. I challenge you, JTurk, to show that the ACHA pays that amount of money. The executive director gets paid $60,000 and the five commissioners receive a total of $30,000. Director of Operations is $10,000. That is a far cry from $200,000

Stuff…Not sure where you are but is the wind blowing because you’re getting a bit twisted. You can kid yourself about the Michigan schools and D1. They have held court and maintained their voting block for a long time.and dictated whether you want to admit it or not the path of the acha’s actions .The point you’re missing is that was a factor in what played into the creation of the CHF. It was not Michigan itself but the attitude and demeanor it and their “friends"perpetuated and fostered towards programs that didn’t meet their favor. They would do anything to further their agenda at any team, region,levels expense.
Better check what I said about acha"salaries” . I said back when the layoffs and reduction in stipends happened. I’ll assume your numbers are correct, perhaps you forgot the former Director of Hockey Operations and his 75k…what about the National tourney director…and are the VP’s donating their time as well as the other members of the exec board? Do you have dollar figures for those positions?Regardless the CHF spends"0" on its staff salaries.
We’ll agree to absolutely disagree on CVT.
Apples to apples the CHF is a better value, more member driven and aware. Never stated there was a significant day to day operational difference. CHF is less expensive for sure. website/software/rankins are probably comparable. Salaries and self indulgence (international tournament “staff”:on the acha dime, push the acha over the top.
I resect differing opinions whether I agree with them or not. Baseless accusations , not so much, “Money Grab” is an outright lie. I’ll glady supply our proposed 2021-2022 budget, I’d ask the samefrom the acha but pretty sure it’s unavalable if it even exists.

JTurk…Having been a part of the ACHA since the 90’s I have seen the ACHA evolve over the years. I can concur that the ACHA’s growth was/is due to the lack of NCAA opportunities at the collegiate level. The ACHA has definitely made missteps throughout it’s history.

I was a part of the early inception of D3 and I can assure you every voice was heard in the room in the creation of the D3 bylaws with the south region having the largest voting block. I would suggest JTurk that you dive into the history of the ACHA and specifically D3 as you jump to conclusions about the Michigan schools controlling D3.

Ok, I don’t have current specific numbers but I can tell what I know about paid positions in the ACHA and have seen the budget. By the way, it’s illegal for a 501C3 organization to have a budget that is not disclosed to it’s membership. DHO $75,000, Commissioners $30,000, National Tournament Director $5,000. No elected members receive any type of stipend. All elected positions within the ACHA donate their time. So your earlier post of $200,000 going towards salaries is way off. Expenses are covered for all elected and staff are covered as well, which I’m sure the CHF does for their appointed positions.

A couple of questions…and I heard this through the grapevine so this is why I’m asking the question. When the CHF is courting conferences, there seems to be some negotiations that are going on. As an example the SECHC was given 4 teams at nationals and when the Michigan league was approached they were guaranteed 2 teams at nationals. Is there any truth to this? I have on pretty good authority of this type of negotiations going on with CHF.

How can you say the CHF is cheaper for tournament bound teams? At the end of the day CHF tournament bound teams pay more than the ACHA teams at the D3 level. That is apples to apples. So if the ACHA is a money grab, the CHF is the same.

Stuff,
Don’t put words in my mouth. Where did I ever say the acha is a money grab? NEVER ever said that. Its irresponsible to throw words like that out in a forum without any background.
Did I say the CHF offers a better experience for all programs and a better cost savings and value for sure.
The 200k # as I said before was based on “before” the layoffs and stipend changes. At the end of the day, acha pays out well over 100k (real number TBD) to people in their organization out of the teams entry where the CHF does NOT.
I appreciate your experience within the acha, but writing the original by-laws isn’t part of this conversation. The topic here was in reference to the creation of the CHF. The misuse of the by-laws…the lack of transparency.in action as well as budgetary functions (your 501C3 comment is correct—has the acha distributed a proposed budget to all their programs?? or is it still here’s how we spent your money after the fact?)…the lack of inclusion and the overall unwillingness by the exec board to open a dialogue with conferences regarding any concerns or issues…made the CHF a reality. Whether you and I agree the Michigan block protecting their desires and their alliances with the board were pretty apparent to everyone in attendance.in Naples.
Normally I won’t play the “grapevine” game. Whatever you might think you know, bids to nationals are based on membership, size of field and team availability and ultimately who each conference chooses to send. SECHC-SCHC and AAU joined the CHF because of their dissatisfaction with the acha and its attitudes towards teams and conferences. I’m certain amount of bids to a national tournament comes up in every conversation when a conference is considering change. Guarantee’s not so much.
CHF is at this point primarily Mens D2 and D3 teams. The only way acha MenD3 is less expensive for a tournament bound team will be IF they eliminate Regional tournaments at the D3 level. Won’t be the case at D2 so I’m still pretty comfortable saying the CHF is a better value and offers more for each program. If the acha eliminates the Regional, good for them its a sign they are using the CHF as a template for better care for programs.

Good conversation…enjoy the opportunity to discuss the topics!

I agree JTurk it’s good to have dialogue!! The adjustment of pay was made prior to the pandemic. I used the term “money grab” as you depicted as such. I just gave it a term. At the end of the day in terms of financials the ACHA is public knowledge as CaliHockey posted a link in the other thread. Your statement of $200,000 has never been accurate so make sure you’re statements are correct when posting. That is irresponsible!! You can check out the public information. Exactly how much does the CHF dole out for expenses then. It should be public record since it’s a membership driven organization. I’m just calling it as I see it as it pertains to your posts.

The writing of the original bylaws is a part of this conversation!! I have said that the ACHA does not give D3 the same voice as other divisions. That has been historical and you state this as the reason why the CHF was formed.

The "grapevine’ you suggest is real. I have documentation that addresses what you refuse to acknowledge.

Regionals at the D3 level are finished so…as in any organization things are fluid. It’s not a sign from the CHF as the CHF didn’t have enough teams to do a regional. In the history of D3 there wasn’t regionals for many years due to the number of teams. Regionals were passed years ago without any dissent because of the number of teams and this was the way to create representation across the entire country. Oh yes the Michigan schools came up with that!! If the old system had stayed in place 50 percent or more of the 16 teams at nationals would have been from Michigan. As a D3 body we worked to make D3 representative of the entire country with equal opportunities for everyone.

Yes JTurk history is important. I know you aren’t privy to history with the ACHA but don’t discount history as I have many examples how the D3 body at the national meetings worked together regardless of where they were from. Your painting a picture of D3 that is not accurate. However, I won’t disagree with you about the ACHA and the sometime disregard for D3.

Stuff,
I like your spin work…good try at making the acha look like teflon. Never prefaced or implied money grab and no matter how you try and make that a part of the conversation , it doesn’t fly. acha pays out significant dollars to its staff. Pre pandemic it was actually over 200k regardless of your denial. Granted they’ve thinned the payroll due to the lost revenue from the CHF teams departures., Its still over 100k today…thats 100k of team fees paid out. The CHF doesn’t do that. Still unsure if acha offers its teams a proposed preseason budget or just a spend list postseason as they did in the past.
The original bylaws regional representation you cling to as " not Michigan proof" has no bearing on how things were done 2 and 3 years ago.
I admire your dedication to the acha company line. Ending the needless expense of regional play has always been part of the CHF plan from day one.Its one way to help programs reduce their expeditures. .CHF has had more than enough teams for regional play and yes the acha is following suit with the CHF as its the only way they might be able to compete financially… Look at the fee structure, you’re telling me acha was being nice guys knocking the D3 down to 1400? Its the only way they can get close to equity in costs.
Once again I appreciate your experience of “old time” acha. That acha you reference may have been someday in the past but it certainly.wasn’t the case in recent history and not even close when the CHF was formed. The picture I’m painting of the acha is over the past decade and into today…
I’ve been part of the acha admin structure and have a good number of friends who are still proud members. TMy opinions on the acha changed when it became apparent the upper echelon of that administration felt their agenda overrode the best interests of the entire organization. They applied the by-laws as they wished, they adjusted the “rules” to perpetuate their control and then unabashedly campaigned to limit the access of all members,
I’d love to whatever documentation you have that requires acknowledgment. “Hearsay” and "he said they said " is the exact nonsense I told you I would have no interest in . The grapevine and rumor mill are just that.

I miss the old days where everyone would just talk about hockey on here.

That was hockey101 when everyone would complain about iowa st then lindenwood

I think all those iowa state folks disappeared

By the way, check out these thread from 2018

Saying the same thing about d1 that jay was saying about d2/D3. 30% don’t vote, old guard controls everything. “ I have been to quite a few of the coaches meetings in Naples, and the “old guard” that Jwilson is referring to is the major issue within M1. Take a look at the past few years, we had an excellent addition at ACHA Executive director and he made significant strides to improve the ACHA’s marketability but mainly M1’s overall professionalism. Then miraculously he is no longer the executive director (cough, forced out).”

Remember when someone wanted to use a different insurance to make everything cheaper but the USAHockey people freaked out?

That is not accurate. The forum doesn’t allow more than 3 consecutive posts by any user in a given thread. There can be as much back & forth dialog between users as desired. If you’re trying to post 4 consecutive replies to a thread, I’d suggest first organizing your thoughts and posting only once instead.

The BoardBoss

I wouldn’t worry about him as he’ll disappear once the facts were laid out.

That’s fine boardboss, I’ll follow your rules, I may have missed where this board stated it doesn’t allow more than three responses per thread. I will make sure to be compliant.

Cali Hockey sorry haven’t been around. Had a family member pass away so…my time was taken up the past few days. I think Mike Walley did a great job so don’t jump to the conclusion that I disapproved of a lot of things he accomplished or attempted to.

JTurk-we will have to agree to disagree on a number of items although I do think we are closer to the same ideals as to what is best for college hockey. JTurk you are correct in your assessment of the ACHA and how “rules” are not followed. I choose to work within the parameters of the ACHA and challenge the leadership when I come upon rules that are not being followed. However, I do know this, regardless of how you slice it up it costs more for national tournament bound teams in the CHF than it does for ACHA D3. That is basic math. The dues for ACHA D3 have never been above $1,400 so…One more thing the ACHA tax filings show they have never spent $200,000 to their staff, it’s in the thread straight from Cali Hockey.

But that doesn’t include the golf, meals, other expenses, correct?

By the way, why is the meeting in Naples again? Orlando or Las Vegas like most conventions makes more sense

I would assume CHF is covering expenses for their leadership as well. If not I would be curious to see where the money goes. I don’t know why they choose Naples but I would assume that the ACHA coaches also belong the AHCA which has their convention there as well, may have something to do with it.

Or Michigan coaches love their flip flops and golf. Self serving? Have they ever asked the teams? Nope…Naples again

ACHA can talk when they change the name of the Murdoch cup. Why hasn’t that happened?

How does the Michigan make the decision to go to Naples? You clearly don’t understand how this works. I don’t disagree with you about the Murdoch cup. Move to the CHF, no organization is going to be perfect.